Voice of taxi driver: Where to?

Female passenger: Carnegie Hall, please.

[background noise]

Voice of box office: Okay, here are your tickets. Enjoy the show.

[music]

Jeff Spurgeon: In New York, there are lots of ways to get to Carnegie Hall. A subway, a taxi, a walk down 57th Street. You have just found another way to get to America's most famous home for classical music. Welcome to Carnegie Hall Live, the broadcast series that gives you a front-row seat to concerts by some of the greatest artists in the world, and you hear the performances exactly as they happen. You are part of the audience sharing the experience of music-making at Carnegie Hall. I'm Jeff Spurgeon backstage alongside John Schaeffer.

John Schaefer: You heard Jeff mention some of the greatest artists in the world. That is the case tonight. We have with us the Cleveland Orchestra, considered to be absolutely at the pinnacle of world orchestras, conducted tonight by Franz Welser-Möst, their long-serving music director, and on the program, two pieces, both of them classics, Igor Stravinsky's Pétrouchka and Tchaikovsky's Symphony Number 5. Franz Welser-Möst is now in his 23rd season with the Cleveland Orchestra. His contract currently extends through 2027. At that time, he will become, Jeff, the longest-serving music director in the orchestra's history, surpassing the legendary George Szell.

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, it's quite an amazing record he's making. This concert's a bit of a return for Maestro Welser-Möst too. He took a leave of absence from the orchestra after the European tour in 2024 because of some health concerns, but he's back tonight, standing straight up in front of us, getting ready to go on stage in just a moment, looking terrific. The New York Times has called Cleveland America's most brilliant orchestra under Welser-Möst's leadership. Part of that acclaim comes from innovative programming and the championing of new works. In fact, a few years ago, the orchestra began its own recording company, so there's been a lot of growth under Welser-Möst's leadership.

John Schaefer: Tonight we will start with Pétrouchka by Igor Stravinsky, one of a series of works, a series of masterpieces that Stravinsky wrote within a very brief span of time. 1910, he wrote The Firebird. Then Pétrouchka came a year later in 1911. Then, of course, in 1913, the groundbreaking Rite of Spring. Now, Pétrouchka, Stravinsky first thought of this as a piece for piano and orchestra, but it made its mark as a ballet score for Sergei Diaghilev's famous dance company, the Ballets Russes. It was written, as I say, in 1911, but we're going to hear a later update from 1947. Stravinsky wanted to make it more of an orchestral showpiece rather than a ballet score.

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes. There's four tableaux in what we're going to hear this evening, and the narrative goes something like this. There are three main characters. They're all puppets. The Moor, handsome, dashing, the Ballerina, beautiful, graceful, and Pétrouchka, who is more of a clown figure and certainly not as charming as the Moor. Then there's a fourth character, not a puppet, in fact, a human, a magician who, with the wave of a flute as a magic wand, brings these three puppets to life, and they begin to dance.

Then the love story commences. Pétrouchka falls in love with the Ballerina, of course, the Ballerina falls in love with the Moor, of course, and the love triangle naturally does not go well. In fact, it ends with a duel in which the Moor kills Pétrouchka.

John Schaefer: Wait, there's more because Pétrouchka comes back to haunt the magician puppet maker and curse him for making Pétrouchka come to life in the first place. Now, Pétrouchka is what they call a stock character. In Italy, he's known as Pulcinella. Of course, Stravinsky wrote a Pulcinella suite later on as well. In England, Pétrouchka is Punch, as in Punch and Judy. Under whatever name, the character is a trickster whose shenanigans often have unintended consequences. In St. Petersburg, Stravinsky's home city, Pétrouchka puppet shows would be set up in these colorful booths at fairs during Shrovetide, which is a week of festivities before Lent. Think of it as a Russian version of Mardi Gras. That term, Shrovetide, appears in several of those four tableaus, Jeff, that you mentioned.

Jeff Spurgeon: That's right. The whole story starts and ends at the Shrovetide fair. In between, we go to Pétrouchka's room and to the Moor's room. Then in the final scene, the disaster happens, but, of course, there's an epilogue to the story for Pétrouchka rises again. His spirit, in spite of the puppet being killed, he rises again to thumb his nose at the whole world that didn't maybe treat him so well.

It's an old story, but a great one told in this rich Stravinsky music, which we're about to hear. The Cleveland Orchestra has been on stage for a while. No entrance tonight. They just began the concert on stage. The house lights are dark, and we are just awaiting the arrival of Maestro Welser-Möst. Then we'll take you on this amazing journey in music of Igor Stravinsky.

John Schaefer: We might also mention that the Cleveland Orchestra in the old days was considered one of the so-called big five, one of the great five-

Jeff Spurgeon: American orchestras.

John Schaefer: -orchestras of America along with New York, Boston, Philadelphia, and Chicago. These days, I think, fans of the LA Phil and San Francisco Symphony would have something to say about expanding the five, but Cleveland has never relinquished its place at the very forefront of American orchestras. As you mentioned, Jeff, a lot of that is down to-

[applause]

John Schaefer: -Franz Welser-Möst's programming, new works, playing concert performances of operas that don't require an opera house, and all the cost of sets and costumes. All of these things have been really well received. Guest concertmaster with the orchestra tonight.

Jeff Spurgeon: Concertmaster of the Cleveland tonight is Jan Mráček, who is a member of the Czech Philharmonic, but standing in tonight to lead the Cleveland Orchestra from the first violin seat. Now the orchestra's tuned and he's taken his post, and in just a moment, Maestro Welser-Möst will cross right before our eyes, and we'll enjoy Stravinsky's Pétrouchka on this broadcast. Indeed that's the stage door-

[applause]

Jeff Spurgeon: -with the Cleveland Orchestra rising to its feet. You hear, I think, an expected very warm welcome for Maestro Franz Welser-Möst.

John Schaefer: A much-loved figure here at Carnegie Hall. His appearances with this orchestra, the Vienna Philharmonic, and others, but it is the Cleveland Orchestra that he leads now in Stravinsky's Pétrouchka from Carnegie Hall Live.

[MUSIC - Igor Stravinsky: Pétrouchka]

[applause]

John Schaefer: The Cleveland Orchestra on stage at Carnegie Hall performing Stravinsky's Pétrouchka conducted by their long-term music director Franz Welser-Möst, right now turned to face the audience here at Carnegie Hall, which lost no time in rising to applaud the performance that they've just heard from the Cleveland Orchestra.

Jeff Spurgeon: So many sounds are made in such fascinating ways by Stravinsky to depict all of the characters in Pétrouchka. There aren't that many. A few in the foreground, a few in the background, but the music is so rich. To me, John, it just sounds impossibly complex to keep track of for an individual orchestra player, or the ensemble as a whole. The rhythms are so complicated and continuingly complex. It's a fascinating work.

John Schaefer: Yet for all the complexity, you can follow the character of Pétrouchka, that brassy trumpet sound, and then the little elegy for the dead Pétrouchka at the very end. Some of the emotions are complex, but they're also quite clear.

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, that's right.

John Schaefer: Which is a neat trick.

Jeff Spurgeon: Something Stravinsky was very good at. You got to hear a great many sounds that the Cleveland Orchestra can make. Wonderful instrumental solos throughout this piece, and really a great showcase for just about every section of the orchestra. Back on stage now, Franz Welser-Möst for another curtain call, shall we say. He steps to the podium and begins to call out some of the sectional players and soloists who were so prominently featured in this performance of Stravinsky's 1947 version of the ballet Pétrouchka.

John Schaefer: Now, it's originally a 1911 piece. We mentioned earlier that Stravinsky's original idea was a work for piano and orchestra. You can hear echoes of that because there is a very important piano part still in this piece, but the orchestra is huge. In addition to the piano, there's another keyboard, the celesta, and an arsenal of percussion instruments. Lots of whims doubling other whims and, of course, a full section of strings, many of them now being pointed out by Franz Welser-Möst. He now asks the entire Cleveland Orchestra to rise and face the audience and take a bow.

1947 arrangement of Stravinsky's Pétrouchka. He wanted to make it more of an orchestral showpiece, but there might, Jeff, have been another reason why he recreated or reimagined this piece. After Stravinsky moved to America, he found that American copyright laws were rather different from what he had been used to in Europe. He actually found that he needed to go back to a lot of his earlier works and basically recompose and resubmit them for copyright.

Jeff Spurgeon: To protect his work.

John Schaefer: Yes. There is even an arrangement of our national anthem by Stravinsky, which he thought cleverly, "I could copyright that."

Jeff Spurgeon: [laughs]

John Schaefer: That didn't work out. [laughs]

Jeff Spurgeon: Can't blame him for taking the opportunity.

John Schaefer: He knew which way was up. [laughs]

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, that's exactly right. We've reached intermission of this concert by the Cleveland Orchestra coming to you from Carnegie Hall Live. You hear the orchestra players filing past us. I'm Jeff Spurgeon along with John Schaefer backstage. We're going to have a conversation with a couple of these musicians in just a moment.

John Schaefer: Franz Welser-Möst, a familiar sight to Carnegie Hall, a familiar sound on our broadcasts. When the Cleveland Orchestra was here in 2023, he told us about his long-term relationship with this remarkable orchestra.

Franz Welser-Möst: When I started in 2002, when I signed my contract actually in May '99, I thought maybe 5, 10 years, but I can't tell you how excited I am still leading this institution artistically. It starts really with where we are at home. Cleveland is a beautiful city and has a highly devoted and motivated audience. Then it's this constant drive for excellency, for perfection, even knowing that perfection does not exist, but you try to go at least towards that.

Also, the constant challenging each other. I think a lot about when I put together a program in which areas I still can challenge the orchestra. As they come really extremely well prepared to a first rehearsal, they also challenge the conductor. I think that's what keeps this relationship alive, fresh, and beautiful.

John Schaefer: That is Franz Welser-Möst speaking to us back in 2023 about his relationship with the Cleveland Orchestra. Now, of course, two more years gone by and his contract extends to 2027. He will be, by the end of that year, the longest-serving music director in the long history of the Cleveland Orchestra.

Jeff Spurgeon: This is Classical New York, WQXR 105.9 FM at HD Newark, 90.3 FM, WQXW Ossining, and WNYC FM HD2 New York.

John Schaefer: It's intermission here at Carnegie Hall. After intermission, we'll hear Tchaikovsky's Symphony Number 5. We are going to have an opportunity, once the piano gets moved past us,-

Jeff Spurgeon: [chuckles]

John Schaefer: -to speak with a couple of members of the Cleveland Orchestra who have just put on a show and a half for us, and we've only heard one piece out of the two that are on the program. Joining us at the microphones are one of the bassoonists from the orchestra,-

Jeff Spurgeon: Jonathan Sherwin.

John Schaefer: -Jonathan Sherwin.

Jeff Spurgeon: Just handing off his contrabassoon right now to an assistant and putting on some headphones. Also along with us tonight is percussionist Marc Damoulakis. Welcome both of you to Carnegie Hall Live.

Jonathan Sherwin: Thank you.

Jeff Spurgeon: Jonathan, you, you had lots of solos in this work.

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes.

Jeff Spurgeon: They had to come in at exactly the right time. This piece has to be a challenge every time.

Jonathan Sherwin: It is. As long as I've been doing it, it's a challenge every time.

Jeff Spurgeon: [chuckles]

Jonathan Sherwin: I keep thinking it's going to get easier and it doesn't.

Jeff Spurgeon: [laughs]

Franz Welser-Möst: Do bassoonists love Stravinsky or fear him because he does write a fair amount for your instruments?

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes, it's both. There are times it's great and very gratifying, but it is very scary.

[laughter]

Jeff Spurgeon: On your toes all the time. That's no less true for the percussion section. You have, John said, arsenal, battery. It all sounds like a bunch of weapons back there.

John Schaefer: [laughs]

Jeff Spurgeon: How do you sort it out amongst yourselves? How are parts assigned?

Jonathan Sherwin: There's a lot of different ways to assign this piece in particular. There's a lot of solo playing, There's a lot of ensemble playing. We spread it around pretty well, I think. I play drums and tambourine. Colleague plays xylophone. There's a bass drum cymbal attachment. They're all solo parts.

John Schaefer: The piano and celesta, are they considered part of the percussion section in this piece?

Jonathan Sherwin: Technically, but in the orchestra, they're their own section.

Jeff Spurgeon: Right.

[laughter]

Jeff Spurgeon: Jonathan, you've had a long career with this orchestra, but we noticed in your bio that had the music thing not worked out, you might be sitting where we are. Are you still in the voiceover business occasionally?

Jonathan Sherwin: I am, but nobody calls.

[laughter]

John Schaefer: That's how that business goes.

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, that's right.

Jonathan Sherwin: I've heard that.

Jeff Spurgeon: That's right. You need another agent, but you did voiceovers when you were in Denver working there.

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes, I did.

Jeff Spurgeon: Some podcasting, too, I think.

Jonathan Sherwin: It was so long ago that there really wasn't such a thing as podcasting.

[laughter]

Jeff Spurgeon: That's been an important part of your work too. One of the things, I think, that is not understood about double reed players, oboists and bassoonists particularly, is that most of your free time is not technically taken up in catching up on the news or spending time with your family. You're carving bamboo in the basement. You make your own reeds. Where do you get your bamboo from? Where does this stuff come from?

Jonathan Sherwin: It really comes from all over the world now. It used to be exclusive to the south of France. I just recently got cane from Turkey. Japanese, Japan is growing it. California, of course, which does everything, including now rose cane. We really get it from all over. You're right, it is a big, big part of our lives. You multitask, you do other things. If you're really relaxing to watch a baseball game or football game, you are making reads while you do that now.

[laughter]

Jeff Spurgeon: That's a part of your discipline, but I wanted to ask Marc about how a percussionist holds onto his chops because we can picture a bassoonist playing scales. Anybody would play scales. You'd practice your intonation. How does a percussionist stay sharp? What do you do?

Marc Damoulakis: On the road is the most challenging because we're without instruments most of the time. We're usually in our hotel room on the practice pad, rubber pad, something quiet enough, but something that resembles a drum on some level. It gets a rebound of the stick. We do rudiments, practice our snare drum roll a lot. Then, at home, scales and arpeggios on a keyboard instrument is a good routine. It's not that far off from a pianist, a keyboard player when it comes to the melodic instrument.

Jeff Spurgeon: Now, you know New York very well. You spent a lot of time here as a professional musician, played in a Broadway pit orchestra for a little while, worked with the New York Philharmonic and other ensembles. You've also been a teacher, and you've been a part of the faculty for the National Youth Orchestra of the United States of America, which is one of Carnegie Hall's great projects in the last few years. Can you talk a little bit about that experience?

Marc Damoulakis: Yes. It's a fantastic organization. I now have one colleague in my section who was in the first year of the National Youth Orchestra, and another one coming in in September.

Jeff Spurgeon: Wow.

Marc Damoulakis: It's really gratifying and daunting to see how good they are every year.

[laughter]

Marc Damoulakis: They do a great job of getting world-class conductors to mentor these kids. It's really impressive.

Jeff Spurgeon: World-class musicians as well. Jonathan, you are a teacher as well. Where do your students come from? All over the country, locally?

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes.

Jeff Spurgeon: How do they find you?

Jonathan Sherwin: Nowadays, it's online. Often everything is done online, especially by younger people now. Used to be that you would write to an institution and get physical information. The glossy pamphlet would come with teacher's resume and what they were doing. Now it's online. A lot of kids communicate with potential teachers and something that was not done when I was auditioning for colleges. You went for a sample lesson.

John Schaefer: It went by really quickly there, but one word leaps out at me and that is lots. Are there lots of young people who are beating down your virtual, your digital door to learn bassoon?

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes, certainly at the two institutions I've either taught at or currently teaching at. Usually, a lot and bassoon is not used in the same sentence, or artist-

[laughter]

John Schaefer: Which is why it's [inaudible 00:57:52].

Jonathan Sherwin: -and contrabassoon. That there, of course, everybody's definition of a lot, but if you have 60 kids,-

John Schaefer: That's a lot.

Jonathan Sherwin: -that's a lot. Even now as all these various schools have nurtured all these bassoonists, they now go on to the market and start auditioning, of which there aren't many jobs. We're going to be having an audition for assistant principal bassoon in May, and we received over 120 applications for this one position. I happen to think that's a lot.

Jeff Spurgeon: Sorting out any crop of 120 is no easy job.

John Schaefer: Marc was saying how gratifying it was to now see some of his students working their way. Must be equally gratifying to you to see that kind of response.

Jonathan Sherwin: Yes. I recently have a former student who's a new member of the Boston Symphony. Yes, it's very gratifying. In some ways, you can't describe it.

John Schaefer: Yes.

Jeff Spurgeon: It's a really wonderful thing that you have both had amazing performing careers, teaching careers, and a wonderful legacy of students. I think that actually, it was you, Mark. I got the sense that you need to watch your back because the kids are coming up behind you. [laughter]

Marc Damoulakis: It's a friendly, it's all friendly fire.

Jeff Spurgeon: Sure, sure. Well, and thank you so much for spending some time. You guys should take a break, because you've got a whole Tchaikovsky symphony to help the Cleveland Orchestra bring us in the next part of this program. Thank you both so much. Percussionist Marc Damoulakis and bassoonist Jonathan Sherwin, members of the Cleveland Orchestra. Thanks for being here.

Marc Damoulakis: Thanks.

Jonathan Sherwin: Thank you very much.

Marc Damoulakis: Thanks for having us.

Jeff Spurgeon: Really appreciate that. We're here at Carnegie Hall, where you can hear some of the best musicians in the world, but you can also find Carnegie Hall's magic all over the city of New York, bringing music programs to even the youngest among us.

Tiffany Ortiz: Early childhood programs encompass a range of programs that support parents and caregivers with young children. Hi, I'm Tiffany Ortiz, and I'm the director of Early Childhood Programs here at Carnegie Hall. Our newest program is Big Note, Little Note, and that is a really precious gem that has developed out of the work that we were leading with families in the community and the desire to really build something that was long lasting, something that could dig a little bit deeper around musical play and different ways in which families can engage with music day to day.

Jeff Spurgeon: This program is found in community spaces throughout New York City. There are Big Note, Little Note classes in libraries, community centers, and even neonatal intensive care units, known as NICUs.

Yvette Brownridge: I'm Yvette Brownridge. I am the mommy to Bryce Dupree.

Saskia: I'm Saskia, one of the teaching artists for Big Note, Little Note. I had the pleasure of meeting Bryce and Yvette while we worked with Mount Sinai, working with families that had just come out of the NICU.

Jeff Spurgeon: Bryce was born 28 weeks early. She spent 127 days, just over four months, in the NICU.

Yvette Brownridge: She had necrotizing enterocolitis. So she had a colostomy bag and her bowel was in the bag. I was worried. We had a lot of appointments, and I was told that this will help.

Tiffany Ortiz: We developed this 10 week music class to really engage families in supporting their 3 to 18 month olds around musical exploration.

Jeff Spurgeon: Big Note, Little Note isn't your typical early childhood class either. Teaching artist Saskia told us there's quite a bit of collaboration between teachers and caregivers.

Saskia: The experts in the room are the caregivers, and they're going to share with each other and learn from each other. We're there to offer up some songs that might help with certain things. So, we'll have a class on soothing, we'll have a class on rhythm, brain building, which is everything. Families will share with us songs they're doing at home. Although there's a curriculum, if there's a song that Yvette would bring, we would learn it and sing it together, or she would lead it, for example. Families are really part of the class structure and what happens.

Bryce Dupree: [cooing]

Jeff Spurgeon: That's Bryce, making her radio debut. Her mother, Yvette, told us how important the Big Note, Little Note class was for their family in the midst of a challenging time.

Yvette Brownridge: Often, in the NICU, you do feel alone if your child is in a separate room. Like my daughter was often in a separate room, because she did have medical complications.

Saskia: It was really intimate because some families had a hard day. Right? It's an intense time in a family's life and so it was really great to sort of build a community through music and through getting to know one another in that way.

Yvette Brownridge: We were going in between doctor's appointments and surgeries and still logging in. That was just our bright spot. I don't care what happened. I like when we made our own song.

Say spicy, Brycey, what would you like to do today?

My spicy, Brycey, what kind of games do you want to play?

Would you babble, babble, babble, babble, babble on top?

Would you put on a headphone and go for a walk?

Or would you stay at home and have some milk and talk?

John Schaefer: Just a little sample of what you might hear in Carnegie Hall's Big Note, Little Note classes. It is intermission here at Carnegie Hall. The Cleveland Orchestra will be returning to the stage in a few minutes to play Tchaikovsky's Symphony No 5. Franz Welser-Möst leading this orchestra, as he has done for some 23 years now, but he also occasionally steps out with other orchestras, including on this stage. Last year, we broadcast a performance by the Vienna Philharmonic doing Mahler's 9th Symphony. Here's just a little bit of that, with again, Franz Welser-Möst conducting.

[MUSIC - Gustav Mahler: Symphony No. 9]

Jeff Spurgeon: Some of Mahler's Symphony No. 9 in a performance by the Vienna Philharmonic conducted by Franz Welser-Möst from previous season's broadcast, from Carnegie Hall Live. Backstage at Carnegie Hall, I'm Jeff Spurgeon. John Schaefer is here, and so is the Cleveland Orchestra and conductor Franz Welser-Möst. In just a minute or two, they are going to bring to you Tchaikovsky's Fifth Symphony.

John Schaefer: Now considered one of the popular works of Tchaikovsky, but in his day, Tchaikovsky himself had, well, kind of mixed feelings about it. He thought it was a bit of a dud. He actually told his brother, "I have come to the conclusion that it is a failure. There is something repellent in it."

Jeff Spurgeon: Well, there's an argument for underselling things, but that's hardly an endorsement. Now, for Tchaikovsky, writing it just wasn't an easy process. He was suffering from writer's block at the time, he'd lost inspiration, and worse, he'd lost his confidence. Other letters to his brother tell us that he was all but banging his head against the wall to scrape together any kind of material to build this thing. Eventually, he got his groove back and the symphony began to flow. Maybe it was fate.

After all, that was a Tchaikovsky motive for his whole life. There is, in fact, a motif woven throughout the symphony that we're about to hear, which he at first called a representation of fate, in an early sketch. So, one way to interpret this symphony is as a confrontation with destiny.

John Schaefer: Tchaikovsky, who would later claim that there was no kind of program, no storyline behind this piece at all, in his early sketches, he did write about fate and providence and doubt and faith. It's difficult to-- music is such an elusive thing to talk about, let alone to create.

Jeff Spurgeon: It's a language that lies beyond words-

[applause]

Jeff Spurgeon: -but speaks to the heart and the mind just the same. The stage door opens and out goes the Cleveland Orchestra music director Franz Welser-Möst, asking the orchestra to stand. Warm applause for this band and its conductor who are about to bring us the Fifth Symphony of Tchaikovsky, from Carnegie Hall Live.

[MUSIC - Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky: Symphony No. 5]

[applause]

Jeff Spurgeon: From Carnegie Hall Live, you've just heard the Cleveland Orchestra and the music director Franz Welser-Möst perform the Symphony No. 5 of Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky. Now the orchestra is on its feet, and the cheers that you just heard rise from the audience at Carnegie Hall for the music director Franz Welser-Möst and this orchestra. Backstage at Carnegie, I'm Jeff Spurgeon, alongside John Schaefer. Sorry, John.

John Schaefer: I was just going to say Tchaikovsky had mixed feelings about his Symphony No. 5, this audience does not.

[laughter]

Jeff Spurgeon: Certainly not. Certainly no mixed feelings about this performance.

John Schaefer: Yes. Tchaikovsky was especially uncertain about the effectiveness of the finale as an ending, and yet it has become kind of a place where conductors can really make their mark. The opening march, almost funereal march at the beginning of the fourth movement is a place where from performance to performance you will give very different interpretations, very different rhythms and tempi from a wide array of conductors. If anyone ever asks you, what does a conductor do? Play two recordings back to back at the fourth movement of this Tchaikovsky Fifth, and you'll have a very good demonstration of exactly how much difference a conductor can make.

Jeff Spurgeon: We hope to get a chance to perhaps talk about that subject with Welser-Möst in a few minutes. We have been told he may be available for a quick conversation following this performance. Right now, he is on stage, and it looks to me, John, that he is very grateful to be here. Franz Welser-Möst has returned sooner than was anticipated from a medical leave this year. He's about three weeks back with this orchestra now, and I think he's very happy to be here tonight as the maestro.

John Schaefer: Certainly, the audience is very happy to have him back with this sterling ensemble, the Cleveland Orchestra. We both noticed, Jeff, that the orchestra is somewhat further upstage than we're used to seeing.

Jeff Spurgeon: We spoke with someone from the orchestra, and they told us that they have recreated here at Carnegie Hall the same on-stage arrangement of the chairs that they have in Cleveland. Some orchestras are on risers, not at Severance Hall in Cleveland, and all of the musicians are sitting on the stage at Carnegie Hall. No risers. Well, Franz Welser-Möst is up on a conductor's podium, and now calling out particular sections of the orchestra for particular recognition by this audience. Yes, John, as we were saying, they're also a little farther back.

John Schaefer: Yes, which I thought perhaps initially they wanted to be out of reach of any disgruntled audience members and whatever rotten fruit they had smuggled into the hall.

Jeff Spurgeon: Sure.

John Schaefer: It turns out they just aback in Severance Hall. They all want to be under the acoustic shell, and that's what they're recreating here as well. It's for the point, it's for the benefit of the sound and the projection of the sound in the hall that they are a little further away from the audience than we're used to seeing.

Jeff Spurgeon: It is not likely something that you listening to this broadcast are able to perceive, but we can tell you that it is a major consideration for ensembles who come to Carnegie Hall as they work out the acoustics in their rehearsals, which, by the way, is an impossible task, because at rehearsal, it's a lot more live space because--

John Schaefer: Right. You don't have 3,000 other bodies in the room with it.

Jeff Spurgeon: Soaking up the sound.

John Schaefer: Yes.

Jeff Spurgeon: It is a real process for an orchestra to figure out how to be in a place where they are not usually. Returning to the stage once again, Franz Welser-Möst.

John Schaefer: Shaking hands with Jan Mráček, who is the guest concertmaster with the Cleveland Orchestra—on loan, as it were, from the Czech Philharmonic. He is now on his feet, and so are the rest of the members of the orchestra. Franz Welser-Möst, center stage, and a standing ovation from the crowd here at Carnegie Hall.

An all-Russian program, we began with Stravinsky's Pétrouchka in the 1947 arrangement of that 1911 original by Stravinsky, and then Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 5, a symphony that really has a kind of recurring motif that goes all the way through all four movements of the piece, something that Tchaikovsky did in his Manfred Symphony as well. A work that has a real coherence to it.

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, an absolute through line.

John Schaefer: Whatever reservations the composer himself had about it.

Jeff Spurgeon: It may have had indeed. Now with the conclusion of that performance, and the end of the applause, the stage doors are opening and the members of the Cleveland Orchestra are filing out. We are delighted to welcome to the microphones Maestro Franz Welser-Möst. Congratulations on this performance. Welcome back to Carnegie Hall.

Franz Welser-Möst: Thank you. Thank you very much.

Jeff Spurgeon: You're three weeks back with this orchestra after being away for a while. How does it feel to be back in the driver's seat?

Franz Welser-Möst: Great. When you drive a Rolls Royce with a Ferrari engine, it could be better than that.

[laughter]

John Schaefer: Well, you had that metaphor all lined up. I'm impressed. We heard Stravinsky's Pétrouchka in the first half, Tchaikovsky's Symphony No. 5 in the second half. You usually have a reason for the programs that you present. Do these pieces speak to each other for you?

Franz Welser-Möst: Of course, so the surface, both are Russian, but that would be too cheap.

[laughter]

Tchaikovsky 5 so often, at least to my taste, gets played too sugary and self-indulgent. The way I grew up, when I was 15, I heard for the first time in my life, Yevgeny Mravinsky with the Leningrad Philharmonic. At that time, it still was called. That was for me a key experience. It was like a tank had rolled over me. I started to understand how strict actually this music should be played. Or in other words, how do you break chains if you don't have the chains on beforehand? You know what I mean?

John Schaefer: Okay.

Franz Welser-Möst: In Tchaikovsky's music, it's not this kind of self-indulgent, sort of, yes, egotistic. Oh, I'm a victim. I feel so bad. Whatnot. It's so much more. It's so much deeper. When you go back to the great interpreters of Russian music like David Oistrakh, Horowitz, and even before them, Yevgeny Mravinsky, there is a classical strict approach to that music, which I think gives it or allows them so much more for profound, really deep feelings.

John Schaefer: The idea that because we think of Tchaikovsky as a romantic, that we need to give it this lush, hyper-romantic, over-emotional performance practice.

Franz Welser-Möst: It makes it cheap.

John Schaefer: Yes.

Franz Welser-Möst: It makes it cheap music.

John Schaefer: It undercuts the actual--

Franz Welser-Möst: Yes, exactly.

Jeff Spurgeon: John had been talking about the wide range of tempi that might exist in performances of this particular symphony. I wanted to ask you, do you have a right one or do you find a different one each time?

Franz Welser-Möst: No. You see, we are discussing now for about 50 years the metronome figures of Beethoven.

Jeff Spurgeon: Right.

Franz Welser-Möst: Yes?

Jeff Spurgeon: Yes, right.

Franz Welser-Möst: Then we ignore the metronome figures from Tchaikovsky.

[laughter]

Does that make sense? Not to me, at least, you know.

Jeff Spurgeon: Okay. All right.

Franz Welser-Möst: I think the metronome figures Tchaikovsky wrote down, especially also in this symphony, make total sense if you take them seriously.

John Schaefer: Well, you made a very convincing performance in both pieces on the program. It's great to have you back. What's next?

Franz Welser-Möst: What's next? For me, we are going back home to Cleveland. We have two more performances on Saturday and Sunday. Then I go back to Austria, celebrating 200th birthday of Johann Strauss with the Vienna Phil. Thank God, my normal working schedule seems to start again. I've been five months not working because of my health situation. I'm just thrilled that I can be working again.

Jeff Spurgeon: Clearly, the audience here tonight was thrilled to see you, and we are thrilled to have you spend some time with us. Thank you so much,-

Franz Welser-Möst: Thank you.

Jeff Spurgeon: -Franz Welser-Möst. Always a pleasure to talk to you and a thrill to hear you with the Cleveland Orchestra once again.

Franz Welser-Möst: Thank you so much.

Jeff Spurgeon: All right.

John Schaefer: All right. Safe travel.

Jeff Spurgeon: Safe travels home. All right. I think that's going to wrap up our program for this evening, John.

John Schaefer: That does it for Carnegie Hall Live tonight. Our thanks to Clive Gillinson and the Staff of Carnegie Hall. WQXR’s team includes engineers George Wellington, Duke Markos, Bill Siegmund, Neal Shaw, and Noriko Okabe.

Our production team, Lauren Purcell-Joiner, Laura Boyman, Eileen Delahunty, and Dominic Hall-Thomas. Our Project Director is Christine Herskovits.

I'm John Schaefer.

Jeff Spurgeon: I'm Jeff Spurgeon. Carnegie Hall Live is a co-production of Carnegie Hall and WQXR in New York.

 

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