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Brian Lehrer: It's the Brian Lehrer Show on WNYC. Good morning, everyone. This is the morning of the first official Democratic Mayoral Primary Debate in New York City, coming tonight. It'll be tonight at 7:00. I'll be one of three questioners along with Errol Lewis of NY1 Television and Josefa Velasquez of the nonprofit news organization in The City. It will be live here on WNYC and on NY 1 from seven until nine o'clock.

In advance of the debate, we'll have our latest candidate interview coming up in a half-hour from now, Brooklyn Borough President Eric Adams will be here at 10:30. He's one of the leaders in most of the polls that have come out if you don't count undecided, which is really in first place. It's good these debates are starting up.

Our main topic for our May round of candidate interviews here is economic recovery from COVID meets economic justice. Among our questions this morning will be one we hadn't planned for until this week because Eric Adams this week at the New York Post endorsement for mayor and some of his rivals are pouncing on him for that. We will ask whether any Democratic Party candidate concerned with inequality should want the New York Post endorsement considering the Post's place in New York and American politics from a Democratic primary voters' point of view. I'm curious what he'll say. That question and more for Eric Adams at right around 10:30. Again, the debate with all of them tonight at seven o'clock.

If you're following the news from DC this week, you probably know that the Republicans in the House of Representatives stripped Liz Cheney of her leadership post yesterday, because she won't support the charade that President Trump would have won last year's election were it not for massive election fraud that nobody's been able to find. We'll talk about that, but what all the Trump versus Cheney coverage might have made you miss from Washington was a really big climate story with implications for the New York, New Jersey area, as well as the nation as a whole.

President Biden this week approved the nation's first really big offshore wind farm. It will be off the coast of Martha's Vineyard in Massachusetts, and they say provide enough power for 400,000 homes to be heated with electricity. Now, according to the New York Times, that's about 20 times as much power as the two existing offshore wind farms are producing combined right now, 20 times in the waters near Virginia and Rhode Island. Those two that are already in place.

Here's the local hook. The president also designated some areas of Long Island and New Jersey for the next sets of big wind farms, some fishing industry, and beach community officials don't like it. Joining me now is a member of Congress who does. With us now to talk about this unlikely pair of stories, the Liz Cheney story, and the wind farm story is Long Island Congresswoman Kathleen Rice, Democrat from Nassau County, a big proponent of wind farm development. Her district does include part of the south shore from roughly Atlantic beach and Long beach out to around Jones beach. Congresswoman, always a pleasure. Welcome back to WNYC.

Congresswoman Kathleen Rice: Thank you so much, Brian. It's always great to be with you.

Brian: Let's start with the wind farms. For those who don't know about them, what exactly is a wind farm?

Congresswoman Rice: I am hoping that more and more people get to understand what this is. First, I just want to say, as you mentioned, Brian, I was so happy to hear the news out of Massachusetts that the Vineyard wind project had been given the green light by the Biden administration. This is going to pave the way forward for future projects across the country.

Just to give you a little perspective as well. I was fighting, when Trump was in office, I was fighting to get the Bureau of Ocean and Energy Management called BOEM, which is within the department of interior to designate wind energy areas because obviously, Long Island is an area-- It's called the New York Bight and it starts out in Montauk and it goes all the way up to Cape May, New Jersey, which is an area rich in offshore wind development. We were very happy that the new BOEM director finally named those wind energy areas.

Basically, what these are is offshore, so what people need to understand is this is not-- They're not going to be eyesores. They're so far offshore. These wind turbines that you won't even see them. The reason why this offshore wind is so critically important for New York is because the legislature and the governor already has required New York to provide 9,000 megawatts of offshore wind power by 2035. We're taking the state into a much more energy-efficient direction.

On top of that, especially now that we're coming out of a pandemic, the number of jobs that this offshore wind development is going to create, it's tens of thousands of jobs, Brian. I think we should all be excited about this. It's a critical priority for us on Long Island.

I am so happy that the Biden administration is taking action right out of the gate to jumpstart offshore wind development. If you look at what they're doing in Europe, they are so far ahead of us in terms of offshore wind, and wind development. We have to catch up. The offshore wind industry is going to create, as I said, thousands of not just low-paying jobs, but really good-paying jobs, and it's going to help us to combat the climate crisis at the same time.

I understand people's concerns about what it's going to do to the environment, they already finished a supplemental environmental impact statement up in the Massachusetts area that I hope is going to lead us on Long Island to be able to go through that process even faster. You won't even see them. It's not like you hear them. These are so far offshore that you won't even see them, but it's going to be a job creator and it's going to be great for the environment.

Brian: Well, let me jump in on there where you said we're not even going to see them. There's a nj.com story from a few weeks ago, headlined "Will visible offshore wind farms sink Jersey shore tourism?" The debate goes on, and relevant to your district a story in Newsday in March, South Hampton town supervisor, Jay Schneiderman, who says, "That area is too close to shore, in my opinion, where the wind farms would be and the wind turbines would be and should not be considered.

It appears to be 15 miles out in the ocean, that would make it very easy to see the large turbines." He says, "These utilities need to be located farther offshore to eliminate the visual impacts from public beaches." What's your response to the South Hampton town supervisor on that quote?

Congresswoman Rice: I hear what he is saying, but I honestly can't-- What are we talking about here? Brian, you can barely see these turbines. You drive through California, you go from say LA to Palm Beach, or to Palm Springs, and they've got the wind turbines on the land. Now, granted they're not in residential areas, but they understand how important it is to develop wind energy. They are so far offshore that you're not even going to notice it at its closest point.

For instance, the project for off of Jones Beach State Park would be approximately 14 miles off the beach. At the closest point, you're talking about 30 miles off the East coast of Long Island. I understand what his complaint is, but it's not going to prevent people from going to the beach. You can still enjoy the beach. You're not going to hear the turbines. I think that everyone has to do their part to support, at least in New York state doing their part to go in a more energy-efficient direction. We need to protect Long Island.

From an environmental standpoint, we're very vulnerable. We see these once-in-a-hundred-year storms every year. We don't have the luxury of what Mr. Schneiderman is saying. We don't have the luxury of complaining about an aesthetic when you're talking about creating energy to power millions of homes across New York state.

Brian: I see that Newsday article also quotes Bonnie Brady, executive director of the Long Island Commercial Fishing Association, a Montauk-based commercial fishermen's group. She said, "I'm sick to my stomach. These are grounds that guys fish. That's how they feed their families and the nation." Adding, she was particularly dismayed the Biden announcement didn't include programs to compensate fishermen for the loss of fishing grounds. What's your response to that?

Congresswoman Rice: I understand. Look, I speak to the environmental groups, whether it's concerns about wildlife, fishing, all of that, and I understand their concern, but this is why these supplemental environmental impact statements are done and why they take so long to be done because government officials want to hear from every advocacy group to understand what their concerns are and to develop these projects in a way that will have as little an impact on fishermen, we don't want to put fishermen out of business, that's not the point, especially on Long Island. That's not what this is going to do, and that's why these environmental impact statements are so important because they incorporate the concerns of advocates who are worried about these issues.

We try to make these projects be as environmentally sensitive as they can be, but also recognizing how important it is to have this kind of offshore wind development on Long Island where that energy source-- We're rich in it on Long Island. No one is ever going to be 100% happy, Brian, about things, but I think that when people start to see this development, and the minor impact it's going to have on communities versus where people get their energy, the cost of energy, we're going to address all of our environmental issues, and we're going to have tens of thousands of jobs.

You always have to weigh the good with the bad, but in this case, in my opinion, I think this development far outweighs the minor impact it may have on some of the concerns that the advocates have raised.

Brian: Listeners, anyone want to say anything or ask anything about wind energy, or the prospect of wind turbine farms off the Long Island, New Jersey, or Massachusetts coast 646-435-7280, or anything else pertinent to Democratic Congresswoman Kathleen Rice of Long Island, we will get into the Liz Cheney story and the implications of that, but anything pertinent to Congresswoman Rice 646-435-7286, 646-435-7280. Some people are calling in already so let's take a call from Earl in Toms River, you're on WNYC. Hi, Earl.

Earl: Hi, there, how you doing today?

Brian: Good. What you got?

Earl: All right, so I fish I go offshore out to the canyon 150 miles out and as we all know, unless we're flat earthers, the Earth has a curve and you can only see a maximum of 14 miles distance no matter what. These wind turbines, you would not be able to see them. Number one, their tall and very, very skinny, so you can't see them anyway with a haze, but when you see border towers and such when you're coming back in or buildings, usually, about 10 to eight miles off, it would be impossible to see them based on my experience and that other fishers experience, you could ask anybody.

They're also great because they provide a habitat they provide what they call structure, and then fish make like a reef. It's great for fishing. It's a wonderful thing. It's actually great for the environment. It's not bad for the environment at all. People don't understand that anytime they have oil rigs or structures like this, it actually creates great tourism because people can go there closer and fish and not to go so far out.

I think they're really cool. I love to see in the ones down Atlantic City, whenever I go down to Atlantic City, I think it's awesome.

Brian: Earl in Toms River, thank you very much not that far from Atlantic City. Earl, a fishermen for wind farms. He cited a number for how far off the shore you could see. I always wondered when I sit on the beach Congresswoman. How far is the horizon? He says it's less than 15 miles do you actually know?

Congresswoman Rice: You know what? I don't know the answer to that question, Brian. I've sat on the beach my whole life, but I don't know but I can tell you that-- I'm glad that Earl put it out there as someone who-- Look, he's not a politician, he's not developing the wind farms, so you can take what he says and believe it. He's someone who would be impacted and he recognizes that the impact is minuscule and I think that we just have to keep that in mind, Brian.

When you're trying to do new things, as building offshore wind farms is brand new, we're going to be some of the first in the nation behind Massachusetts doing it. This is really exciting. Yes, there are concerns, but we have very good federal and state laws that allow for environmental concerns to be considered and to be incorporated into whatever project is ultimately green-lighted and I know that that's what's going to happen here.

We have not made determinations yet. We are literally at the beginning stages. They just announced the wind energy areas so we haven't even begun the lease auction and the development and all that kind of stuff. Look, if there are any of your callers who are concerned, please feel free to reach out to my office. Kathleen Rice, I represent New York's Fourth Congressional District on Long Island, and I'd be more than happy to address whatever concerns people have.

Brian: There's no tweets. I've seen windmill farms, they can be quite beautiful and graceful. They are much nicer than a nuclear tower or the old little coast stacks in Northport.

Congresswoman Rice: That's for sure.

Brian: Good Long Island reference. Elena in Westchester, you're on WNYC. Hi, Elena.

Elena: Yes, good morning, Brian. Thank you for the opportunity to ask your guest. Certainly appreciate the green energy, very much needed. However, I would like to ask what are the effects on migratory birds from wind farms? Thank you and I'll take my answer off the air.

Brian: Thank you very much. Congresswoman.

Congresswoman Rice: Well, Elena, that's a really good question. That is obviously one of these concerns that people have not just the fish, but also the birds because they know that they are obviously part of our beautiful ecosystem. They have found that there are literally, I would say, a negligible impact on migratory birds. Again, this is a concern that we have heard, just like we've heard about the concerns about the aesthetics, even though you would not see-- The turbines would not be larger than I think it comes down to about a half an inch on the horizon.

Half an inch, you wouldn't even notice it, but that is a good question and that, of course, the impact on migratory birds is going to be part of an environmental impact statement. I have to be honest with you Elena, I have not read the full supplemental environmental impact statement that they did on the Massachusetts project, but I will, and I would be happy if you call my office, I'll be happy to get back to you on the specifics of that.

Those are environmental concerns that we take into consideration, that regulators take into consideration when they talk about what the specifications are going to be for this kind of development.

Brian: I looked it up and I have a little bit on this, this morning because I remembered that President Trump said, "Windmills kill all the birds." Never mind, he's talking about wind turbines, not windmills and he's got his agenda. Do you remember he said, "Windmills kill all the birds," and he said the noise from windmills causes cancer? Well, the cancer thing is just silly, but here are some news organizations fact checks on the birds for you Elena in Westchester, and anybody else curious about this question.

An article in The Washington politics website The Hill said windmills kill 200,000 or 300,000 birds a year, according to a study by federal scientists, that's no small number, it says, but it does pale in comparison to the number of birds killed elsewhere. It cites the USA Today review of the federal study which noted that collisions with cell and radio towers caused an estimated 6.8 million bird deaths a year, while cats kill a staggering 1.4 billion to 3.7 billion birds a year compared to the 200,000 or 300,000 from windmills or wind turbines.

Are windmills destroying the bird population as Trump claims? No. Concludes The Hill, collisions with animals rather than infrastructure are the big problem there. There you go, but it's still hundreds of thousands of bird deaths and yet nobody's calling to cancel your cell phone towers because of the millions of birds they kill every year.

Congresswoman Rice: Good point Brian.

Brian: I thought I would throw that in. Let's see. Let's take one more on windmills-- Wind turbines I should say, wind farms, and then we'll move on to some other things with Long Island Congresswoman Kathleen Rice. Maureen in Highlands, New Jersey, you're on WNYC. Hi, Maureen.

Maureen: Hi, can you hear me Brian?

Brian: I can hear just fine.

Brian: Hello.

Brian: I can hear you, can you hear me?

Maureen: Yes, I can thank you and I'm trying to turn off my radio. I just want to say one quick thing, I've already dealt with this mentally. I'm right here on the Jersey Shore. I want to see it happen and I've reframed it in my mind as flower power for a green world. Picture them as flowers on the horizon. As small as they may be, think of it a different way. Think of them as a good thing, and actually a visual reminder that we're getting greener. That's all I have to say. Consider that as a slogan, flower power for a green world.

Brian: Thank you very much.

Congresswoman Rice: Maureen. I love that. I got to tell you, I think that is fabulous. So much of educating people is coming up with little things like that, flower power for a green world. How great is that? I am going to use that and I will give you credit, Maureen.

Brian: Somebody has to tell me because I've always wondered why Highlands and Atlantic Highlands, New Jersey town called Highlands is on the shore, I don't know, but there it is. All right, I see you also have a bipartisan short town-oriented bill with Republican Long Island congressman Andrew Garbarino, aimed at staving off a big flood insurance rate hike that could take place this fall. Is higher flood insurance the result of sea-level rise from global warming?

Congresswoman Rice: There's no question about it. Brian, this has been an issue that has lingered since Superstorm Sandy and we're trying to fix it. I'm so happy to have this effort be bipartisan. One thing that New Yorkers and certainly Long Islanders should be very happy about is that regardless of the fact that we have two Republicans and two Democrats, actually three Democrats because Greg Meeks is a part of Long Island as well, representing Long Island in Congress. I would say 10 times out of 10, whenever it's an issue that matters to Long Islanders and New Yorkers writ large, we are usually on the same page. This is no difference.

People got killed in Superstorm Sandy because they were desperate to rebuild their homes and they took money that they believe they could get from many different sources, whether it was FEMA, their insurance company, any grant money. Then we found that a lot of this money, they were trying to claw back because they should only have applied to one or all this kind of craziness. Also, now they're trying to make it prohibitively expensive for people to get flood insurance. The rate hikes would just be very, very difficult for people to swallow. That's why Andrew and I are working on this together. We have to completely overhaul FEMA to begin with, that's a discussion for another day.

I'm hopeful that we can make this fixed so that people aren't killed, they're trying to do the right thing and get insurance. As I said, we have these once in 100-year storms every year on Long Island. Power goes out, homes are flooded, you have to rebuild, you have to build them back up on stilts. It's hard for homeowners to do the right thing when six months later, they're told that they didn't-- They took too much money, and they have to pay it back or their rates go through the roof.

Brian: I guess the skeptics could ask why put off the inevitable and make others subsidize it? If the properties close to the shore are no longer viable because of more frequent floods or higher sea levels from global warming why not acknowledge it and not build back there time and again, rather than keep subsidizing environmentally non-sustainable development with tax dollars?

Congresswoman Rice: Well, that's a question, Brian, that has flummoxed a lot of politicians. I know that the governor was pressured to look at certain parts of Queens and Long Island to say, "Okay, no more building homes here, " but that is not politically feasible. The response to that was not good, especially for the homeowners who would have been impacted, who would have had to leave their homes that they've been in for decades and decades. You know what, this whole subsidy thing, we've been subsidizing big oil for far too long, we got to get rid of those subsidies, and help people be able to live in their homes.

If we would just take this state and this country into a more energy-efficient direction, we're not going to have to worry about the flooding and the rising sea levels. We have to take care of this planet, especially when you're talking about Long Island. I don't ever want to leave Long Island. I spent all of my 56 years on Long Island. I live in the same town that I grew up in, and that's what we want to preserve for people. We have to just put our priorities in the right place.

Brian: Let's see. A lot of people still calling in and tweeting about windmills. I mentioned I don't know how far the horizon is when you sit on the beach. A number of people, science geeks, math geeks, sailors, writing in and calling in. One person writes, "For an observer standing on the ground with a height of 6 foot 7 inches," that's only Aaron Judge, probably nobody else. "The horizon is at a distance of 5 kilometers or 3.1 miles, for an observer standing on a hill or tower, 30 meters 98 feet above sea level, the horizon is at a distance of 12.2 miles," that cites Wikipedia. That sounds small to me.

Congresswoman Rice: Yes, three miles. I know.

Brian: Somebody else tweeted that they were in the Navy, I lost this tweet now, but it was something like they were in the Navy or a sailor or something and the horizon from the shore is generally 14 to 15 nautical miles. Nautical miles, just a teeny bit bigger than a land mile. That would make it around 15 miles. I guess it leads me to the question, If it's that close, why don't they just put it 18 miles instead of 15 miles offshore? Do you have any idea? Then nobody could complain that they would be visible.

Congresswoman Rice: I am not an engineer, Brian, and I don't even act like I play one on TV, but those are consideration-- By the way, I think that you can go out that far and I don't know exactly how they decide how far off they're going to be. Obviously, all the aesthetics are taken into consideration. The engineering ability to put it even further out, I don't know how they come up with that amount with that distance.

Brian: Somebody else tweets, "Just looked, and there's an interesting history of Highlands on Wikipedia, there was a bit of a hill that served as a lookout during the Revolutionary War and that's why a shore town can be named highlands." All right, let's talk about in our remaining few minutes, the other party in your Washington House, the Republican Party, the Grand Old Party, per its nickname, and initials. What's the significance to you, other than to watch the republicans be divided of Liz Cheney losing her leadership role yesterday over her denunciation of Trump's big lie and the fake election fraud concerns?

Congresswoman Rice: This should be a concern for every single American, not just Republicans, not just Democrats, not just Independents, every single American. What Kevin McCarthy engineered yesterday with the full support, almost the full support of the House Republican caucus was the biggest cancel culture moment that we've ever seen. Republicans talk about Democrats being woke and all this cancel culture, they just canceled Liz Cheney, because she told the truth about what happened on January 6th. In this Republican Party, Brian, Republicans are rewarded for lying and embracing extremism. They are punished when they stand up for what is right.

Matt Gatez is still on his committees and Liz Cheney is now sent to Siberia. Look, there are a few voices of reason on the Republican side like Liz Cheney, like Adam Kinzinger. By the way, there is very little from a policy standpoint that I agree with Liz Cheney about, it's sad that she is a soul profile encourage, along with people like Adam Kinzinger as well and a couple a handful of others. That's what it is.

Brian: I guess that people thought that Trump would go off after his loss and start a third party, remember all the talk about that?

Congresswoman Rice: Yes.

Brian: Does it now look to you more like the Trump wing owns the brand called Republican and it's the conservatives like Cheney not promoting the election lies who would have to start a third party and do you think she might?

Congresswoman Rice: Let's just be clear about what the Republican Party is right now in 2021, it is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Donald Trump. That's what it is. I know that Adam Kinzinger talked about trying to start an offshoot of the Republican Party. I don't know. Look at what we have in New York. It's impossible for there to be any party other than Republicans and Democrats. Independents, go either way, they're not really considered a party per se in New York State. That's really difficult. I really had hope, I was here on January 6th, in the Capitol running from this crazy mob in the basement of the Capitol.

I thought to myself, "My gosh, maybe this is going to be the moment. Maybe this will be the moment that we finally put aside mis and disinformation, this hyper-partisan atmosphere that we're living in and we can all agree that what Donald Trump did by inciting that mob, that insurrection was unAmerican and an attack on our democracy." That was what it was. Look, Kevin McCarthy went down to Mar-a-Lago and kissed Donald Trump's ring, and now he said, "Okay, everyone, we're on the Trump train or you're out."

Brian: Yes, and we only have a minute left, but we should acknowledge that conservatives in Congress, some of them are not crazy about the apparent replacement for Liz Cheney in that number three House Republicans spot. New York Congresswoman Elise Stefanik from the Adirondacks, should probably be elected to that post on Friday, I see. Some conservatives in Congress are not crazy about Stefanik because she's voted with Democrats on a number of bills. There was a statement released, you've probably seen it by Texas Republican Chip Roy that list-

Congresswoman Rice: Chip Roy, he's is going to challenge her.

Brian: He's running against her for this?

Congresswoman Rice: Yes, because he's saying she's not a conservative.

Brian: Right. Here's some of his list that she voted for legal immigration status for the dreamers. She voted to condemn Trump's lawsuit to declare the Affordable Care Act unconstitutional, to overturn Trump's ban on transgender troops in the military, to put the US back in the Paris Climate accords, voted for that Chip Roys says, and some other things. This my last question then we're out of time. Could the rise of Elise Stefanik be bad for the truth about elections, but good for potential bipartisanship on some key issues?

Congresswoman Rice: Absolutely not. I ran with her, Brian, in 2014. The Elise Stefanik of 2014 doesn't even remotely resemble the Elise Stefanik of 2021. She supported the Equality Act Two years ago, voted for it. Two years now in this Congress, she voted against it. What's your explanation? Nothing other than political expediency because she needs to get the conservatives like Chip Roy to support her to be in this leadership role for nothing more than just her own political personal agenda. She is not going to bring the Republican Party to work in a Kumbaya way with Democrats. That is not her ammo. That's not her campaign. That's not what she's saying to fellow Republicans.

She's saying, "We've got to go out there and fight these Democrats." She is not going to be trying to bring us all together here and heal the divisions that are just so rife here. Look, she's going to have a hard time, Chip Roy has said that he was thinking about challenging her because she's not a true conservative and her record bears that out, but she has become a sycophant of Donald Trump and mimics everything that he says. Look, the bottom line, Brian, is Kevin McCarthy is not going to replace Liz Cheney with a man. There's only a handful of women that it could be and Elise Stefanik jumped into the void.

Brian: Congresswoman Kathleen Rice from Long Island, thank you so much for joining us. As always, we appreciate it.

Congresswoman Rice: Thank you, Brian.

 

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